Phil Jones zum Thema Leistung und Speakon

Kong

R.I.P., Mikki
Phil Jones, der bekannte Konstrukteur von Speakern, gefalteten Horn-Boxen und Amps mit ein paar Tatsachen zum Thema "Verstärkerleistung und Speakon".

Viel Spaß beim Lesen.

A few words on Speakon Connectors and speaker cables for bass players.
I just want to help all my friends here understand what is required on getting the best from your amps!

When I started my own sound reinforcement company in London 1980 and I was one of the first in the world to design and use Subwoofers (Multiple 2 x JBL K151s 18inchers on17 foot long folded hyperbolic horns) for live sound , there really weren't any standards as to what to use for high power speaker connectors, In this age the standard PA power amp was the Crown DC300. The power by today's specs are very lame at 155watts per ch into 8 ohms but it became an industry standard and it was not uncommon to have 50 or more of these to power a rig. The problem was that nobody had figured out what to do about a reliable speaker connector. Quarter inch jacks having only a current rating of one amp were out , unless you wanted a small pyrotechnic display behind your speakers, so many of us back then opted for the XLR but if you made a mistake hooking up cables you could get real problems. I found out that yes, SM58s do make sound when they are driven by a power amp , if only for a second before they evaporated up into smoke. I often needed a crew of 6-10 guys setting up my rig and operating it and sometimes a newbie would come along and POOF! There goes another microphone or DI box. The weirdest thing that happened is once setting up a rig we powered the system up with no microphones yet connected and I was getting feedback. Only to find out that one bass bin had been connected to one of the power amplifiers input and was working like a giant microphone!
In the concert sound industry as amplifier power was greatly increasing thanks to advancements in semiconductor technology , it became more economic to employ less efficient vented bass cabinets over the costly to produce cinema based design horn speakers. It was just less expensive to make a vented box and use more of them with more powerful and affordable power amps. The most expensive component of a bass horn was the horn cab itself and years of getting trucked around mean they would ultimately get destroyed, where as the speaker units can almost go on forever. So keep the speakers and replace the cabs occasionally was a more profitable choice.

So the late 80s, the Neutrik Company of Lichtenstein ( a tiny county in Europe for those of you who are in USA ) developed a new industry standard for high power audio connectors; the Speakon connector. As power amplifiers got more powerful and it was now possible to get electrocuted from the speaker terminals (some amps can swing over 100 volts with huge current and its the current that fries you. So safety of protecting users became a big issue and Speakon connectors are safely insulated from any possibility of electric shock. The "new" connector killed any confusion as what would be hooked up to power amps. And lastly they had the current capacity to handle huge currents from amplifiers for the more affordable , power hungry and less efficient vented bass enclosures now being used in pro-audio sound reinforcement.

Bass players today need far more power to get level and tone to keep up with guitar amps and loud drummers. The reason is simple: bass speaker have to move a lot of air and that calls for a specially developed speaker that has high cone excursion capabilities with low distortion. This can only be economically achieved by using what is known as an over hung voice coil. That means that the coil is longer than the magnetic field and if you want very little distortion this is the ONLY way to get that at a reasonable cost.
In short over hung voice coils trade off speaker efficiency for good bass. So while a 100 watt tube guitar amp flat out level will make your ears almost bleed. To get a bass amp to keep up you need about 1000 watts. The frustrating fact is that guitar speakers are just way more efficient ( some can be 103db/watt) than bass speakers because they dont need such a huge overhang on the voice coil.
So if you had a 1000 watt bass head to keep up with your head banger of a guitarist this is what you need to know because it will help you get the best from your amp.
Say, if you had a 4 ohm speaker, then in order to get a 1000 watts, you amp will give out 63 volts and push 16 amps of current through your speaker cables. A 1/4 inch jack plug is rated at 1 amp so you would be exceeding its max limit by a factor of 16!!!
It is also very important that the speaker cable is of extremely low resistance if you want the full power of your amp going to the speakers. A typical low quality speaker cable could easily be almost half an ohm in resistance (or more) and that would mean that over 100 watts could easily be lost in the cable and that is also frequency specific too! I just wanted to explain this very, and I mean very simply so anyone can grasp this. In fact loudspeaker to amplifier interface is anything but simple and those who have read my earlier posts on speaker impedance will know what I mean.
When I developed PJB speaker cables I did this because there just was not anything like the quality I was looking for on the market. Not only do they ensure that every single watt from your amp gets to your speakers, they will greatly improve your sound giving you more controlled tighter and deeper bass, not to forget the incredible mid and high frequency detail, well that is if you have PJB speakers.
 

mikki

Hesslischer Hesse aus Hessistan
Phil Jones, der bekannte Konstrukteur von Speakern, gefalteten Horn-Boxen und Amps mit ein paar Tatsachen zum Thema "Verstärkerleistung und Speakon".

Viel Spaß beim Lesen.

A few words on Speakon Connectors and speaker cables for bass players.
I just want to help all my friends here understand what is required on getting the best from your amps!

When I started my own sound reinforcement company in London 1980 and I was one of the first in the world to design and use Subwoofers (Multiple 2 x JBL K151s 18inchers on17 foot long folded hyperbolic horns) for live sound , there really weren't any standards as to what to use for high power speaker connectors, In this age the standard PA power amp was the Crown DC300. The power by today's specs are very lame at 155watts per ch into 8 ohms but it became an industry standard and it was not uncommon to have 50 or more of these to power a rig. The problem was that nobody had figured out what to do about a reliable speaker connector. Quarter inch jacks having only a current rating of one amp were out , unless you wanted a small pyrotechnic display behind your speakers, so many of us back then opted for the XLR but if you made a mistake hooking up cables you could get real problems. I found out that yes, SM58s do make sound when they are driven by a power amp , if only for a second before they evaporated up into smoke. I often needed a crew of 6-10 guys setting up my rig and operating it and sometimes a newbie would come along and POOF! There goes another microphone or DI box. The weirdest thing that happened is once setting up a rig we powered the system up with no microphones yet connected and I was getting feedback. Only to find out that one bass bin had been connected to one of the power amplifiers input and was working like a giant microphone!
In the concert sound industry as amplifier power was greatly increasing thanks to advancements in semiconductor technology , it became more economic to employ less efficient vented bass cabinets over the costly to produce cinema based design horn speakers. It was just less expensive to make a vented box and use more of them with more powerful and affordable power amps. The most expensive component of a bass horn was the horn cab itself and years of getting trucked around mean they would ultimately get destroyed, where as the speaker units can almost go on forever. So keep the speakers and replace the cabs occasionally was a more profitable choice.

So the late 80s, the Neutrik Company of Lichtenstein ( a tiny county in Europe for those of you who are in USA ) developed a new industry standard for high power audio connectors; the Speakon connector. As power amplifiers got more powerful and it was now possible to get electrocuted from the speaker terminals (some amps can swing over 100 volts with huge current and its the current that fries you. So safety of protecting users became a big issue and Speakon connectors are safely insulated from any possibility of electric shock. The "new" connector killed any confusion as what would be hooked up to power amps. And lastly they had the current capacity to handle huge currents from amplifiers for the more affordable , power hungry and less efficient vented bass enclosures now being used in pro-audio sound reinforcement.

Bass players today need far more power to get level and tone to keep up with guitar amps and loud drummers. The reason is simple: bass speaker have to move a lot of air and that calls for a specially developed speaker that has high cone excursion capabilities with low distortion. This can only be economically achieved by using what is known as an over hung voice coil. That means that the coil is longer than the magnetic field and if you want very little distortion this is the ONLY way to get that at a reasonable cost.
In short over hung voice coils trade off speaker efficiency for good bass. So while a 100 watt tube guitar amp flat out level will make your ears almost bleed. To get a bass amp to keep up you need about 1000 watts. The frustrating fact is that guitar speakers are just way more efficient ( some can be 103db/watt) than bass speakers because they dont need such a huge overhang on the voice coil.
So if you had a 1000 watt bass head to keep up with your head banger of a guitarist this is what you need to know because it will help you get the best from your amp.
Say, if you had a 4 ohm speaker, then in order to get a 1000 watts, you amp will give out 63 volts and push 16 amps of current through your speaker cables. A 1/4 inch jack plug is rated at 1 amp so you would be exceeding its max limit by a factor of 16!!!
It is also very important that the speaker cable is of extremely low resistance if you want the full power of your amp going to the speakers. A typical low quality speaker cable could easily be almost half an ohm in resistance (or more) and that would mean that over 100 watts could easily be lost in the cable and that is also frequency specific too! I just wanted to explain this very, and I mean very simply so anyone can grasp this. In fact loudspeaker to amplifier interface is anything but simple and those who have read my earlier posts on speaker impedance will know what I mean.
When I developed PJB speaker cables I did this because there just was not anything like the quality I was looking for on the market. Not only do they ensure that every single watt from your amp gets to your speakers, they will greatly improve your sound giving you more controlled tighter and deeper bass, not to forget the incredible mid and high frequency detail, well that is if you have PJB speakers.
Der tut ja genau so viel schreiwe wie der Kong! :D
 

Red Cross

Well-Known Member
Bassix
ß47.023
Phil Jones, der bekannte Konstrukteur von Speakern, gefalteten Horn-Boxen und Amps mit ein paar Tatsachen zum Thema "Verstärkerleistung und Speakon".

Viel Spaß beim Lesen.

A few words on Speakon Connectors and speaker cables for bass players.
I just want to help all my friends here understand what is required on getting the best from your amps!

When I started my own sound reinforcement company in London 1980 and I was one of the first in the world to design and use Subwoofers (Multiple 2 x JBL K151s 18inchers on17 foot long folded hyperbolic horns) for live sound , there really weren't any standards as to what to use for high power speaker connectors, In this age the standard PA power amp was the Crown DC300. The power by today's specs are very lame at 155watts per ch into 8 ohms but it became an industry standard and it was not uncommon to have 50 or more of these to power a rig. The problem was that nobody had figured out what to do about a reliable speaker connector. Quarter inch jacks having only a current rating of one amp were out , unless you wanted a small pyrotechnic display behind your speakers, so many of us back then opted for the XLR but if you made a mistake hooking up cables you could get real problems. I found out that yes, SM58s do make sound when they are driven by a power amp , if only for a second before they evaporated up into smoke. I often needed a crew of 6-10 guys setting up my rig and operating it and sometimes a newbie would come along and POOF! There goes another microphone or DI box. The weirdest thing that happened is once setting up a rig we powered the system up with no microphones yet connected and I was getting feedback. Only to find out that one bass bin had been connected to one of the power amplifiers input and was working like a giant microphone!
In the concert sound industry as amplifier power was greatly increasing thanks to advancements in semiconductor technology , it became more economic to employ less efficient vented bass cabinets over the costly to produce cinema based design horn speakers. It was just less expensive to make a vented box and use more of them with more powerful and affordable power amps. The most expensive component of a bass horn was the horn cab itself and years of getting trucked around mean they would ultimately get destroyed, where as the speaker units can almost go on forever. So keep the speakers and replace the cabs occasionally was a more profitable choice.

So the late 80s, the Neutrik Company of Lichtenstein ( a tiny county in Europe for those of you who are in USA ) developed a new industry standard for high power audio connectors; the Speakon connector. As power amplifiers got more powerful and it was now possible to get electrocuted from the speaker terminals (some amps can swing over 100 volts with huge current and its the current that fries you. So safety of protecting users became a big issue and Speakon connectors are safely insulated from any possibility of electric shock. The "new" connector killed any confusion as what would be hooked up to power amps. And lastly they had the current capacity to handle huge currents from amplifiers for the more affordable , power hungry and less efficient vented bass enclosures now being used in pro-audio sound reinforcement.

Bass players today need far more power to get level and tone to keep up with guitar amps and loud drummers. The reason is simple: bass speaker have to move a lot of air and that calls for a specially developed speaker that has high cone excursion capabilities with low distortion. This can only be economically achieved by using what is known as an over hung voice coil. That means that the coil is longer than the magnetic field and if you want very little distortion this is the ONLY way to get that at a reasonable cost.
In short over hung voice coils trade off speaker efficiency for good bass. So while a 100 watt tube guitar amp flat out level will make your ears almost bleed. To get a bass amp to keep up you need about 1000 watts. The frustrating fact is that guitar speakers are just way more efficient ( some can be 103db/watt) than bass speakers because they dont need such a huge overhang on the voice coil.
So if you had a 1000 watt bass head to keep up with your head banger of a guitarist this is what you need to know because it will help you get the best from your amp.
Say, if you had a 4 ohm speaker, then in order to get a 1000 watts, you amp will give out 63 volts and push 16 amps of current through your speaker cables. A 1/4 inch jack plug is rated at 1 amp so you would be exceeding its max limit by a factor of 16!!!
It is also very important that the speaker cable is of extremely low resistance if you want the full power of your amp going to the speakers. A typical low quality speaker cable could easily be almost half an ohm in resistance (or more) and that would mean that over 100 watts could easily be lost in the cable and that is also frequency specific too! I just wanted to explain this very, and I mean very simply so anyone can grasp this. In fact loudspeaker to amplifier interface is anything but simple and those who have read my earlier posts on speaker impedance will know what I mean.
When I developed PJB speaker cables I did this because there just was not anything like the quality I was looking for on the market. Not only do they ensure that every single watt from your amp gets to your speakers, they will greatly improve your sound giving you more controlled tighter and deeper bass, not to forget the incredible mid and high frequency detail, well that is if you have PJB speakers.
Seitdem mir mein 500W Ashdown Combo mit Klinkenout eine gewischt hat weiß ich Speakon auch noch mehr zu schätzen.
 

Willie

Rock on...
Bassix
ß55.375
Im Prinzip hat er ja recht. Billige Kabel haben bei mir eh nix zu suchen, alleine schon wegen der Qualität der Ummantellung. Die sind einfach nicht robust genug. Aber $90 halte ich schon für etwas übertrieben.
Z.B. mein Lieblingskabel: Cordial CLS 225 (2x2,5mm²) hat gerade mal 8Ohm/Km das macht pro Meter 0,008 Ohm bzw. 8mOhm. Länger als 1M braucht man aber selten, selbst bei 2 Boxen. Preis 1,45€ pro Meter.
Für größere Leistungen: Cordial CLS 240 (2x4mm²): 4,95Ohm/km, Preis: 2,40€ pro Meter...
Da sind selbst die Stecker teurer... Meine Daumenregel: <500 2,5mm² >500 4mm² (liegt aber daran, daß ich nicht 1000 verschiedene Kabel auf Lager haben möchte...)
Interessant: http://dj4br.home.t-link.de/lautspr.htm
 

Masl

Well-Known Member
Bassix
ß7.747
Im Prinzip hat er ja recht. Billige Kabel haben bei mir eh nix zu suchen, alleine schon wegen der Qualität der Ummantellung. Die sind einfach nicht robust genug. Aber $90 halte ich schon für etwas übertrieben.
Z.B. mein Lieblingskabel: Cordial CLS 225 (2x2,5mm²) hat gerade mal 8Ohm/Km das macht pro Meter 0,008 Ohm bzw. 8mOhm. Länger als 1M braucht man aber selten, selbst bei 2 Boxen. Preis 1,45€ pro Meter.
Für größere Leistungen: Cordial CLS 240 (2x4mm²): 4,95Ohm/km, Preis: 2,40€ pro Meter...
Da sind selbst die Stecker teurer... Meine Daumenregel: <500 2,5mm² >500 4mm² (liegt aber daran, daß ich nicht 1000 verschiedene Kabel auf Lager haben möchte...)
Interessant: http://dj4br.home.t-link.de/lautspr.htm
Wo du gerade dabei bist: was ist denn der Unterschied zwischen 2- und 4-poligen Speakonsteckern? Habe mal gelesen, dass man 4-polige benutzt, wenn man das Signal von einer Box zu einer anderen durchschleift?!
 

Stratitis

Erklärbär und Simulant :-)
Nö... 4 polige Speakon ermöglichen 2-Wege -Setups. Dabei wird normaler auf 1+ und 1- der Midhigh- und auf 2+, 2- der Basskanal übertragen. Mechanisch sind sie kompatibel.
Ich habe bei mir nur 4-polige Stecker, weil sie mir mechanisch besser gefallen. die Anschlussgruppe 2 nutze ich gar nicht. Die Stecker scheinen mir stabiler und praktischer als die 2-Poligen. Ich habe mal 2-Polige Neutrik in der Hand gehabt, die man nicht wieder auseinanderbauen konnte... quasi Einwegmontage....

Für den PA-Bereich gibt es auch noch Speakon 8 für Speaker Multicores in Mehrwegesystemen. Die sind aber deutlich dicker.

Nachtrag.... Bei einigen GK-Amps mit BiAmping mit Speakon Out ist auf 2+, 2- der Kanal für das Hochtonhorn....
 

Masl

Well-Known Member
Bassix
ß7.747
Nö... 4 polige Speakon ermöglichen 2-Wege -Setups. Dabei wird normaler auf 1+ und 1- der Midhigh- und auf 2+, 2- der Basskanal übertragen. Mechanisch sind sie kompatibel.
Ich habe bei mir nur 4-polige Stecker, weil sie mir mechanisch besser gefallen. die Anschlussgruppe 2 nutze ich gar nicht. Die Stecker scheinen mir stabiler und praktischer als die 2-Poligen. Ich habe mal 2-Polige Neutrik in der Hand gehabt, die man nicht wieder auseinanderbauen konnte... quasi Einwegmontage....

Für den PA-Bereich gibt es auch noch Speakon 8 für Speaker Multicores in Mehrwegesystemen. Die sind aber deutlich dicker.

Nachtrag.... Bei einigen GK-Amps mit BiAmping mit Speakon Out ist auf 2+, 2- der Kanal für das Hochtonhorn....
Ah, danke!

----------------

Nachdem ich festgestellt habe, dass mein Lautsprecherkabel (Thomann-Marke) nur einen Querschnitt von 1,5mm hat und eh viiiel zu lang ist, habe ich vorhin mal die Teile für ein neues Kabel bestellt. Neutrik-Stecker, Cordialkabel mit 4mm-Litzendurchmesser in einer vernünftigen Länge. Schaden kann es nicht!
 

Masl

Well-Known Member
Bassix
ß7.747
Mh... Na gut ;-) Aber dann habe ich immerin ein neues Kabel, welches endlich mal nicht viel zu lang und ultradünn ist. Mechanisch ist die Thomann-Marke bei den Lautsprecherkabeln echt 'ne Zumutung.
 

wasabi 2.0

Well-Known Member
Bassix
ß49.323
Die Phil Jones Kabel klingen tatsächlich besser, wer allerdings auf ein kleines portables Setup steht.... nunja so ein Kabel von ihm wiegt mehr als mein Aguilar top ;-) Die Teile sind daumendick und mit deren Speakon-Steckern kann man Leute erschlagen....

Ansonsten kann ich nur empfehlen dem Herrn auf Facebook zu "folgen", er gibt regelmäßig hochinteressante Dinge preis.
 

Flobert

Sunn-Child
Das mit dem Lautsprecherkabel und dem Sound ist so ne Sache. Ich bin ja kein Esotheriker und rein technisch gesehen gilt ja: Ausreichender Aderquerschnitt & niedriger Leitungswiderstand + der Leistung entsprechende Steckverbindung (Ich bin PRO-Speakon).

Zur Zeit mache ich eine Weiterbildung zum Elektrotechniker (Bin zwar seit knapp 5 Jahren als Elektrotechniker angestellt, nur wollte mein Chef das jetzt schriftlich haben). Unser Klassenleiter selbst ist ein großer HIFI-Fan und hält selbst gern den einen oder anderen Monolog über den Klang verschiedener Systeme.
Das ganze läuft dann immer mit dem technischen Hintergrundwissen ab und ist recht interessant.

Wir, ich meine natürlich ER, hatte es letztens auch darüber, dass er jetzt 4mm² Leitungen nutzt und die ja soooviel mehr Bässe durchlassen.
Weil Bässe->mehr Strom->größerer Aderquerschnitt, etc.
Ein A/B-Vergleich durch seine unwissende Frau hat angeblich das Lautsprecherkabel mit dem größeren Aderquerschnitt entlarvt und seine These bestätigt.
 

dereinevogelda

Vizehorst vom Schneider
Das mit dem Lautsprecherkabel und dem Sound ist so ne Sache. Ich bin ja kein Esotheriker und rein technisch gesehen gilt ja: Ausreichender Aderquerschnitt & niedriger Leitungswiderstand + der Leistung entsprechende Steckverbindung (Ich bin PRO-Speakon).

Zur Zeit mache ich eine Weiterbildung zum Elektrotechniker (Bin zwar seit knapp 5 Jahren als Elektrotechniker angestellt, nur wollte mein Chef das jetzt schriftlich haben). Unser Klassenleiter selbst ist ein großer HIFI-Fan und hält selbst gern den einen oder anderen Monolog über den Klang verschiedener Systeme.
Das ganze läuft dann immer mit dem technischen Hintergrundwissen ab und ist recht interessant.

Wir, ich meine natürlich ER, hatte es letztens auch darüber, dass er jetzt 4mm² Leitungen nutzt und die ja soooviel mehr Bässe durchlassen.
Weil Bässe->mehr Strom->größerer Aderquerschnitt, etc.
Ein A/B-Vergleich durch seine unwissende Frau hat angeblich das Lautsprecherkabel mit dem größeren Aderquerschnitt entlarvt und seine These bestätigt.
Das lasse ich auch gelten, weil selbst schon ausgetestet. ein Umstieg auf einer Strecke größer 5m von 1,5mm auf 4mm hat in der Tat ein wuchtigeres Klangbild gebaut. Aber genau da hört es dann auch auf. Ich hatte damals noch Tests gemacht mit Kabeln, die versilberte Litzen hatten, Voodoo-Klangzauber-was-auch-immer-Sonder-Schnick-Schnack, "richtungsgebundene"-High-End-Kabel von Bowers&Wilkins und was weiss ich nicht alles. Fazit: Das günstige Kabel mit dem größeren Querschnitt war das einzige, was eine wahrnehmbare Klangveränderung herbeigeführt hatte.
 

Basshoschi

Hans im Glück
Das günstige Kabel mit dem größeren Querschnitt war das einzige, was eine wahrnehmbare Klangveränderung herbeigeführt hatte.
Jep, so ises, man bedenke, ich schick da mal schnell 2,4 kW zu den Subs. Die wollen ja ned durch so än kleines Kabel gebremst werden. Stell mir gerade vor wie ich mein Auto morgends mit 1,5mm² zum Starter starten möchte :-) Fireworks :-) wat ned geht, geht ned.
 
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